Speaker | Timecode | Transcript |
- | 00:00:02:00 | Welcome to the SUSS series of podcasts where we explore ideas, solutions and collaborations that are making a difference in the lives of individuals, families, communities and beyond.
This series features guests who will discuss how we can achieve social impact for the greater good, no matter how big or small. |
- | 00:00:25:00 | Previously on the SUSS Podcast: |
Omer
| 00:00:27:00 | You know Victor, I was just thinking about internet search engines. The way they are designed, the algorithms, they sort of give you exactly what you're looking for. These platforms. I mean, if you're looking for, let's say, cat videos, you're going to get cat videos and more. Right. And it's not only that, if the algorithm actually remembers that this is what you like, gives you more of that. |
Omer | 00:00:50:00 | And the kind of people in the social network that also like cat videos, yeah, but we're not talking about cat videos here. We're talking about rather dangerous stuff, dangerous ideas. So all you need is basically a teenager who is sort of exploring, let's say, certain dangerous drugs. Eventually, they're getting very creative. They're getting very clever with this. |
Omer | 00:01:09:00 | They know how to find the somewhat hidden countercultures on the internet they’re not that difficult to find. Because the algorithm is actually helping them. So what can we do about this? |
Victor | 00:01:22:00 | Yeah, it's really tricky because, you know, obviously, these companies have a financial imperative to do this, right? You know, the more time we engage on these platforms, the better for them in some ways. And also, there are some psychological [issues]. I don't know if I'm going to give you a solution, to be honest, but I'll add on to the problem. So one might be confirmation bias. So there's this thing that we seek out information that supports and confirms our beliefs. |
Victor | 00:01:45:00 | And when we're confronted, or we ignore competing contradictory information, I think that really adds to the echo chamber. Social media knows. So, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, whatever, they know that you like this stuff. They know that the people around you, or people who like this would also like certain things. |
Victor | 00:02:03:00 | So as you said, they form a community around it, and the underlying driving psychological principle there I think one of them is confirmation bias. |
Omer | 00:02:11:00 | That is not an easy thing to get out of - confirmation bias. But I heard that was one initiative happening globally. I think it was by Moonshot CVE, called the Redirect Programme. So what they're trying to do to sort of address this confirmation bias, and it's a work in progress, is that let's say you're looking for certain counterculture information, you're going to find it. |
Omer | 00:02:30:00 | But the search engine now has another element to its algorithm, in which it actually puts positive information at the same time. So let's say you're looking for things that actually denigrate a certain community. |
Omer | 00:02:43:00 | And you get all those kinds of narratives. At the same time, it actually gives you counter-narratives. To that kind of hate speech. And not only that, what they are trying to do is whenever you have certain closed, counterculture communities that are spreading harmful ideas, they're trying to find ways in which, that's the whole idea, you're redirecting them towards positive, fact-checked information. |
Omer | 00:03:09:00 | So these algorithms can be something for good. They’re working on this. And one of the things they are trying to do, I realise, for extremist communities, is that they're putting ads for mental health. It's got nothing to do with hate speech. |
Omer | 00:03:32:00 | It's got nothing to do with attacking the ideology, countering it or anything like that, but it’s just saying, “If you feel like you're all alone, if you feel like you're facing all these problems there's a way around it, you're not alone.” That's amazing because some of them who are sort of looking for hate speech information, are actually turning towards these mental health resources. |
Omer | 00:03:52:00 | Which sort of makes me wonder. That's what they needed, they wanted help in the first place. They found it in all the wrong places. |
Victor | 00:04:00:00 | Well, I guess that's a positive ending for them. |
Omer | 00:04:02:00 | Well, it's a work in progress, but you're very correct about this thing about confirmation bias. It's something that we need more research into. |
Omer | 00:04:10:00 | You know, it's one thing when this kind of harmful information is coming from a stranger. But it's sometimes coming from people within their own family.Their own close friends over their smartphone devices, over these messaging apps and so on. |
Omer | 00:04:24:00 | And it's like, it's my best buddy, who’s telling me this. How do you get someone to listen to people outside of their network, outside of those close trusted relationships? |
Victor | 00:04:34:00 | Before that, I've been cutting my hair with the same barber for many years. I know you're gonna joke about the hair-cutting. I like the guy. You know, he's fantastic. He's really hardworking. But that day, when he was cutting my hair, he started telling me about anti-vaccination. I'm serious. Yeah. |
Omer | 00:04:41:00 | I'm getting worried now [about] where I’m going to go to cut my hair. Anyway, yes. So what did he say? I mean. |
Victor | 00:04:5600 | I don't want to sort of be an echo chamber. I don't want to echo that. But it's the same sort of pseudoscience, you know, the really dangerous stuff, because it's built on some form of truth. And I think that's the real danger; it’s not absolute rubbish. |
Victor | 00:05:07:00 | They sort of lean on one or two experts. Yeah, they cherry pick, they sort of take things out of context. So how do we help someone like that? How do we engage them? How do we get them to talk to someone outside? To be honest, I think that's really difficult, [it’s] much easier for us because of that small psychological distance, if it's your barber or if it’s your friend, they are someone close to you. |
Victor | 00:05:28:00 | So they're more likely to be receptive. You see these in health messages, you no longer see this top-down approach, more and more, you have this sort of peer-to-peer engagement. |
Victor | 00:05:39:00 | So you as a trusted family member, you as a good friend, you as a buddy, you actually have a much higher chance of [engaging them]. Maybe not persuading, obviously, we talked about this earlier, you can’t fight disinformation with more information. |
Omer | 00:05:52:00 | Yeah, it’s just like “you say, I say.” You know. |
Victor | 00:05:54:00 | Exactly, but we need to leverage that relationship. So I think that's the first step. |
Omer | 00:05:58:00 | I think what you're getting at in some ways is to find advocates within that same community, to be your own voice. Wow. That's a very novel idea. But I'm just wondering, how do we find advocates who can speak for us? Do we try to join that community of sorts? |
Omer | 00:06:16:00 | I mean, do we try to get to know that social circle better and sort of be involved in it, and then find advocates who can befriend us and become our voices? Is that what we should do first or? |
Victor | 00:06:29:00 | You know, often you think about terrorism right – it's funny that I'm talking about terrorism – |
Omer | 00:06:33:00 | But you know something, [there’re] a lot of translatable points. |
Victor | 00:06:36:00 | Yes, yes. You know, those ex, what do you call them? |
Omer | 00:06:39:00 | Formers. |
Victor | 00:06:40:00 | Yeah, the formers. That’s I think a really key source of influence. Someone who's actually gone to the same channels they've been, spoken the same languages. They were them and they were offered this chance of redemption. It's not just one direction. |
Victor | 00:06:55:00 | You can actually come out and I was exactly like you and I'm out. So I think that's a really powerful source. |
Omer | 00:07:00:00 | I absolutely agree with you. I mean, if you were to translate that same idea of using formers from a, let's say terrorist organisation to speak, against that organisation and how the dangers of getting into that kind of ideology. |
Omer | 00:07:12:00 | There are a number of people who actually came out of conspiracy groups. The number of people came out of QAnon and I even heard one news report in which the parents of a child were actually very ardent anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists. And, the teenager actually did not believe them and came out of it. |
Omer | 00:07:32:00 | And he became an advocate against these conspiracy theories. And it's interesting because if we could identify them and amplify their voices. Yeah. That might be a very effective strategy. |
Omer | 00:07:45:00 | So we really need to understand where these echo chambers exist and understand how they're working. How they're basically attracting youth into their online communities. Are there actually more external factors, forces that are playing an overwhelming influence? |
Victor | 00:08:00:00 | While you're talking about this, I was thinking we shouldn't go from one extreme to the other. We shouldn't try to prevent access to digital screens and time online. It's quite tricky, because there's really no one-size-fits-all solution. I think attempting to address these influences in itself is an attempt to influence if you think about it. |
Victor | 00:08:18:00 | And really, there are two broad reasons why we resist influence and persuasion, from a psychology point of view: The first is they don't like the “how of the influence”. They don't like how the message is conveyed. They don't like the influence agent, you know, “I just don't like the person”, or “I don't like how they're talking about this.” So that's something that, when we try to persuade, we really have to think about it. How are we coming across? |
Omer | 00:08:39:00 | You mean it's sort of like an authority figure telling them what to do. But nobody likes that. |
Victor | 00:08:44:00 | Nobody likes that. And nowadays, we are coming to the realization that if you're talking to an anti-vaxxer, you can't just bombard them with facts. That's not going to work. |
Omer | 00:08:52:00 | It is definitely not working. We've seen that. Right. And it seems like the more you bombard them with facts and clarifications from the authorities, the more they’re saying, “I'm not gonna listen to that.” |
Victor | 00:09:03:00 | Correct. You’re mainstream media. |
Omer | 00:09:06:00 | I guess we are. So [these] evidently clear, very present dangers – how do you think some of these influences can actually be addressed? |
Victor | 00:09:15:00 | Again, you think of why people resist persuasion. One is they don't like how the message is conveyed. And the other is they don't like the content of the message. We first need to recognise: Are they ready to engage with the issues, if they're not, then we really should focus on whether they liked the message, that they liked how the message is conveyed. |
Victor | 00:09:32:00 | So in order for us to even listen to the message, we need to be clear, we need to have the message be accepted, we need them to actually want to listen to the message. That's the first step. So I think often, going back to that point, we are trying to fight all these conspiracy theories with facts, but that's not effective, because they're not even ready to engage with the facts. |
Omer | 00:09:50:00 | I think that's a very, very pertinent point, you brought up this thing about making sure they are actually ready to engage these issues. There’s no point in talking to someone who's already closed off. So I would think it’s a lot about trust-building; building that kind of relationship with them, in which you sort of like, create a common platform, or a space, a middle ground, in which they are ready to talk about these issues and even listen to you. |
Omer | 00:10:15:00 | And I think that's a lot of groundwork breaking stuff.You've got to settle the ground on that first before you even think about the kind of content you would want to bring in? |
Victor | 00:10:24:00 | Yes, yes, that's true. I was just thinking about the future. We say that oh, digital device use has been on the rise. How do you see that rise? How would it shape youths in the community and in society for the near future? |
Omer | 00:10:35:00 | Well, the two things that are happening now. Before COVID. And after COVID. So let's talk about before COVID, there was actually a push towards getting people using the devices, using electronic media, but getting them to interact in the real world. So in other words, it’s a platform to bring people together in the real world. So there were people who were thinking ,”Is there a way we can actually fuse these two media, you know, real interactions, and electronic platforms?” But COVID came along. And this part about the real world? |
Omer | 00:11:11:00 | Yeah, that sort of took a backseat. And this is kind of sad, because it has created a kind of dynamic in which we are now getting this whole idea of working from home, home-based learning is all becoming so normalised. |
Omer | 00:11:24:00 | I think one of the things that need to be done is that we need to keep in mind, as much as we are all connected with these devices right now. We must never forget that as people, we do need that face-to-face, those real world interactions, and this is something that will come back again. And we should always create a little space for that to flourish when the time comes. |
Omer | 00:11:47:00 | So thank you very much, Victor. This has been an incredible conversation and I think two of the most important takeaways from this conversation that we had was, firstly, what you mentioned about those echo chambers, we really need to understand them. |
Omer | 00:12:01:00 | How are they attracting our youths and so on. And I really love that point you mentioned about, you got to wait for them to be ready to engage [with] these issues. You can't just bombard them with these counter facts and everything, you've got to lay the groundwork. And I think this is one area we need to look more towards, and spend more energy towards. And I think that that is a direction we'll probably be taking in the future. Thank you very much, Victor, and thank you for joining me on the show. |
Victor | 00:12:19:00 | Thank you. Thank you very much. |
- | 00:12:23:00 | You’ve been listening to the SUSS series of podcasts. To find more episodes, visit suss.edu.sg/podcast. |