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Transcript

Han

00:10

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Thought Starters, the new season of the SUSS Podcast.

I'm Han from the Centre of Excellence for Social Good. And joining me today is Jai, an associate lecturer from the Social Work Programme, who is also founder and principal consultant at Soci.Train.

Today, we'll be discussing a topic that has created lots of buzz recently, which is the refreshing of Singapore's social compact.

Han

00:37

Hello, Jai. How are you today?

Jai

00:38

Hi, Han. Nice and very good. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to having this very meaningful and exciting conversation on this topic on social compact.

Han

00:47

Yeah, me too. I think we've been talking about the social compact since, I guess more recently with the National Day Rally with Prime Minister Lawrence Wong. But we’ve also talked about the Forward Singapore movement that has been conducted in the last two years.

So perhaps for our listeners, for context, let's have a quick refresher of Singapore's social compact, which is essentially an implicit agreement between the government and the people, on their mutual roles and responsibilities in contributing to the progress and success of our nation.

So in your line of work and also in, I guess through experience in your professional life, how have you come to interact with the social compact?

Jai

01:33

If I just zoom back a bit right, Han, I think you gave a very good overview of how we had defined social compact in Singapore, in our society.

But if I just step back a bit. And if I just look at these two words: social compact, you know, what it really means. For me, I would break down – social, essentially means, it's about humans, right? It's human beings. And that's what I feel, is the essence of what social means. And if I then ask the same question, what is the essence of compact? Then I would say it's relationships, it's connections. And how are we going to strengthen connections and relationships, between humans, in a society? Which is what I feel is going to bind the society together, to move forward.

Jai

02:34

If you ask me, it is important. Relevant. But it's also a very, very challenging conversation because, when we look at humans today, or just people in our country today. So diverse.

I think, recently, when PM Lawrence Wong actually delivered his National Day Rally. I can see how much he has sort of very delicately and very, very importantly, has actually addressed every segment, every diverse individual of our population. So, I think it's a speech that if I am a mother, if I'm a single mother, or if I'm a senior or a young person or a person with a disability or sportsperson, everyone can relate. That, oh, there's something that he's talking about me or there's something that is for me, right?

Jai

03:24

I thought that was very beautifully done. And I think that's exactly how I would see social compact is, because it must be something that, before I form the connections between the different human beings, first I must feel that I belong to this circle, I belong to this society. And once that recognition comes, and then I start forming connections between different individuals that make up the society.

So, to me, I think, it's a very important way that we need to decipher and understand social compact. So, to me, it boils down to humans, and relationships. And that is how I feel social compact can be built.

Happy to hear, what do you think about what I've said?

Han

04:10

I totally agree, because very often when we use big terms like social compact or even the word sustainability, you know, people can form many different images, depending on how the term relates to them.

And very often, when it's so far removed, let's say in policy making, people can't even relate or they don't make the effort to make that connection. So what's really important is that we kind of break it down so that it is relatable, to different parts of society.

Han

04:40

I mean, when you think about it, Singapore is an immigrant society at the core of our roots. So everyone comes with a different set of cultural references and of course, over time, whether it's through our kampungs or whether it is through our institutions and our systems, we've come in contact with other cultures, other religions, other perspectives. And we have become much more diverse as a society.

But what does that mean when it comes to creating a so-called Singapore identity? Should we be trying so hard to just aim for one singular identity instead of saying what it may mean for me as a person who is in this stage of life, who is also charting a future for myself and for my family and definitely for my nation or my country. And, which I assume that I would love to, live here for the rest of my life.

Jai

05:34

Yeah. I think you're spot on. I mean, my own personal perspective is that social compact was a lot stronger in our history. And I think when different groups of people came together, there was a common purpose, right? I mean, they all came here, to form a livelihood and build this nation together.

So I feel for social compact – if I take a very historical point of view – it was very marvelous and very beautifully and very naturally occurred.

Jai

06:08

If you ask me, what are the ingredients? Because perhaps diversity was cut on lesser dimensions in the past, and the common purpose was actually very clear.

But then if you come back to 2024. Firstly, when I listen to the PM's rally speech, every citizen is listening to the speech, right? And as I listen, everybody must feel hey, I think there's something that’s referring to me. And then I create that belongingness.

And then but that's just individual. But I think a society is not made up of individual aspirations or even individual groups' aspirations. So, we need to find a way to connect all these aspirations for a societal good.

Jai

06:51

So, if you ask me, I think the real challenge that we face today is – what is this identity that we are talking about? And at the same time, what is this shared purpose that we need to build, such that we can all feel that this is a place that I belong, and this is a place that I can contribute to. This is a place where my ideas are heard, as an individual group but at the same time, I’m forming that connection with everybody else.

Han

07:19

I feel that at the community or at the people level, you know, we have certain rites of passage, for example, for boys or men, they go through National Service, and that is supposed to be a form of leveller, social class leveller in many ways, regardless of what background you come from, you have to do that. So that's providing one environment. And that's no guarantee, obviously, that that would promote social cohesion, or we will all be cued into social compact.

Another would be, say, housing. You know, we've got ethnic integration policy. Again, it's also creating conditions. It doesn't guarantee that people would become closer. But I guess the point is also creating conditions in multiple ways, in multiple arenas so that there are opportunities for us to interact.

Han

08:07

Singaporeans are much more well-travelled today, and they experience many different cultures, and they don't necessarily see certain perspectives as uniquely Singapore, but perhaps more universal or more global or more regional. And people can form their opinions of how they connect with one another.

So, for instance, both of us may come from a different trajectory, but we intersect, say, in the social service space. And we begin to also develop our connections, our networks, our expertise and also areas of interest. I think that there's a lot of potential for us to move in this direction because more of these spaces are being created for us.

Jai

08:48

Yeah. I think when you talk about space, Han, what comes to my mind is that, Singapore is a very small country, right? Land size, we are very small. Our population density is very high as well. Physically, we live very close. But my humble opinion is that socially we can be very distant. And I think that if we see that as a presenting platform, I think now we need to create that, socially we should be less distant. And to me then you are naturally building social compact.

Jai

09:23

I remember growing up, my grandmother used to live in a kampung, and I think the next kampung is still a bit further away. But today, if I want to see my neighbour, it's a lot closer. I may not even need to walk 100 steps to reach. But yet, the connection is not there. I think physical infrastructure is something that we need to think about. And like, what you say, space is also in the form of social spaces.

Han

09:47

Coming to, proximity, I totally agree. I also feel that nothing unites a community better than crisis. And it's a bit like in post-war or post-independence Singapore, it was really being in the trenches and wanting to have a better life.

So that's so much more of the immigrant ethic at that time, coming to South China, to the Nanyang area and really finding better opportunities. And then with the war, really having shared experiences of suffering and trauma, and bringing people together.

Han

10:24

So what does it mean today? Because, if we ask our generation today, what does the Second World War or independence mean to you? It's something that comes up maybe in textbooks, right? In YouTube videos or at the museum. But something to be known in the head. Something to be written in an exam, something to be introduced to tourists.

But is there also an emotional connection to that part of the history? And what does that mean for us when we form national cohesion, a social contract or compact with the government?

Jai

11:00

I think you're spot on. Which is what – if I just bring in another lens, if you look at our demographics, I think it's no secret. Everybody can just read out, in 2030, 1 in 4 of our population, it's going to be seniors. Which essentially means that we are going to have an aging population and large numbers of citizens living amongst us, they're going to be seniors, right? That can form a large majority of our population.

Jai

11:33

But at the same time, we have young people. They may not be a lot, but their voices could be louder. And they do want their voices to be heard.

So when we talked about belonging. I need to make sure that the seniors feel that they have a voice and they belong and they have contributed to society. They have gone through certain lived experiences.

At the same time, I also need to hear the voices of the young. They also need to feel (like they) belong. And they don't have the same lived experiences. I can't fault them for that. But they also want to be able to see how they want to belong.

Jai

12:12

So, for example, if I look at a workplace, when I was in my previous job, I had like 250 people. And it's a diverse workforce. The more mature ones, they have been working in that particular organisation for 20 years. So they have a wealth of experience. And they know how things should be done and how things would work.

But for the younger folks who join, they don't have similar experiences, so they may not be able to resonate with “why these?”. And they have more efficient ways of doing things, maybe they feel that there isn't a need for me to read so much. I can just use the ChatGPT to tell me what are some of the responses I get, but what I can value-add is application. Maybe I can use technology to simplify processes and stuff like that?

Jai

12:57

As a leader, I need to preserve both of that. Because if I say we are going fully technology, we don't need to rely on some of this institutional knowledge. And then I think the more mature workers are not going to feel belonged. And at the same time, if I say that, “eh you need to listen to the seniors, they have a wealth of experience”, then the young person will not feel that his or her voice is being heard.

So I can see that even as a leader, it's a big struggle. How do I preserve both of that? And how do I have a joint conversation, to achieve some level of balance.

Jai

13:30

So from an organisation point of view, if I bring it to a society level, I think that's exactly the challenge that we will face, right? We need to create opportunities for seniors and feel that they belong. And at the same time, we also need to create opportunities for the youth, and they feel that they belong.

Han

13:49

I agree. I think this brings to mind that we can't just have a one size fits all. I think, in a perfect world where, it's just convenient, just one size – medium – everyone fits into that T-shirt and it's perfect because I don't have to worry about creating different options. And I don't have to worry about the demand side of things.

However, in real life, people don't always fit into the size M. And I used to be a size M but no longer. So even then, recognising that we go through different life stages, and we also have different changes in our attitudes, perhaps.

Han

14:31

As we go through life, maybe our needs also change. Our aspirations may be tempered also with experience. So really, I think one of the things that PM Wong mentioned was also, it's no longer just about going through life focusing on that pot at the end of the rainbow. I think the process of getting there is also very important. Not to say that, that pot of gold is not important. I think we all have to pay the bills and to think about the future and things like that.

Han

14:59

But I think one of the things that came up in your sharing earlier on that spoke to me, was the importance of certain soft skills, the ability to facilitate and not just provide the product or the service, but to facilitate then move the movement or the change toward that direction. So that part is less sexy because the facilitation of the movement or the change, takes time to happen. So you can’t just say that I want to see that tomorrow. But it’s a really long process.

Han

15:29

So I think part of it is for us to kind of also understand the different pain points, the needs of different groups, and also taking the time not just to understand, but also work together towards that and in that process, to get to the direction.

Jai

15:45

Actually, on a lighter note, just when we look at these two different generations, seniors and the young people. I sometimes feel like, for example, we want the seniors to be more, we want them to be able to embrace technology and be more digitally savvy. And then we have so many digital ambassadors, different organisations trying to do that. And then we hear that, oh, you know, they don't want to embrace. I mean, some groups of the population still don’t want to embrace.

But interestingly, when I look at my children, and their grandmothers. So I always tell the grandmothers to speak to them in Tamil because we want them to learn Tamil and stuff like that.

Jai

16:23

But interestingly, the grandmothers tell me, my mother-in-law tells me that, no, my English is getting better. So I want my grandson to speak to me more in English. They are seeing the benefit – oh so now I'm better. And now they are on TikTok, they learned how to use WhatsApp and my sons are educating them about scams.

And to me right, “Eh, how come she is now open to using technology and open to listening to my grandson telling me that hey, you better be cautious”. If I just use this as an example, it's not that they may not want to embrace technology or what, but what is the purpose?

Jai

16:58

Here it goes back to that relationship. I think I don't want to be left out, with my relationship with my grandson. So, he converses in English. I don't care what his parents say about speaking to him in Tamil, he doesn't think is important. And so, I want to converse with him there and by doing that I improve. And both of them are more digitally savvy. And what worked, it was not digital life ambassadors going down there to do that or it's because we had certain problems.

My view is that we need to shift the conversations or some of these things that we want to do from a problem focus to a more aspiration focus.

Jai

17:36

If I want to look at elderly who are living alone and, you know, and you want them to come down to active aging centers. But it is a place that, you must feel excited to go down right. And if I want to feel excited to go down, you need to know what is it that will interest me, at 2 p.m. in the afternoon for me to actually go down. As compared to you telling me that these are potential problems that you may have and this particular space or centre will help you to address the problems.

But actually, can it be a place where I can realise my aspirations? So I also feel that, maybe if we switch all of these things, you know, aspirations.

Jai

18:20

For my son, it's like he doesn't want the grandmother to be subjected to a scam. So it goes on an interest – I want to help my grandmother.

Again, I just looked at some of these anecdotes. But how can we replicate this at a more societal level? So more aspiration-led conversations and the things that we do, is to help you to live your dreams and your aspirations for all diverse groups. As compared, to we develop policies or programmes – taking a problem lens.

Not to say it's not relevant, but I don't know whether it's too much and whether we need to shift a little bit.

Han

18:58

Yeah. So this is a very important point, because I think our default in society, when we look at a problem, when we look at an issue, is to take a formal approach. And in Singapore, a formal approach could come in the form of say, regulations and policies. It could be in programmes, it could be, in terms of the curriculum. So systems that are really ‘hard’ – what you can do, what you can't do, what you should do, prescription, things like that.

Han

19:25

I think there's also a role for informal approaches where, you create conditions and you kind of, support the organic movement.

So it's a bit like that story of the elephant and the seven blind men. So essentially your son and his grandmother are touching the same elephant. But maybe they're coming from different sides of it. One from the trunk and one from the tail, but essentially, and eventually they will meet. And it's the elephant.

So for us, it's also to identify what is the elephant. But sometimes we get it the wrong way because we think that social cohesion is the elephant. But actually maybe human connection is the elephant. And, it requires a combination of formal and informal approaches to build that system.

Jai

20:14

I love this analogy, and it just rings to me one point when Han, you mentioned communication and facilitation. So I think even in Singapore, I must say that we are doing a lot more consultations and you have rightly pointed out that Forward Singapore was a conversation.

But I think what I would like to see more, I feel that today some of the conversations, it would be like the same analogy you used. That everybody is going to hold a different part of the elephant, so you get to hear different perspectives.

Jai

20:46

So let's say for example, I engage a room full of youth. And then I hear all the aspirations and dreams and stuff like that. And then I engage a room full of women and they have their aspirations, they have their dreams. And then I engage a room full of seniors. But I think it's still a similar analogy that I'm hearing different parts of the elephant. But actually, what is the elephant as a whole?

So what is social compact in our society? It's bringing all of these people together in the room. I sometimes feel that, when we do have such, segmented conversations, we are not allowing the different, diverse groups to be able to hear each other.

Jai

21:31

And when we don't do that, then it's again difficult to understand what could be the shared vision. Then there's just one entity who is now having information about all the different diverse groups. And then we somehow have to do this backend figuring out on how to converge.

But I think the people need to also hear each other, and be able to understand trade-offs, be able to understand, how can I work together such that both our aspirations can be met. And I think that there should be more of such conversations, I feel should happen with diverse segments of the population.

Han

22:09

Definitely. You know, so really creating those spaces and attractive for people to come. On the engagement level, I want to go back to your earlier point about just being human about it right? So very often when we come and look at serious national issues, we have a position and we have an identity. And the identity may be rooted in, maybe a socioeconomic position, could be rooted in a political position.

But when we come together to look at societal issues, I feel that that should be maybe a bit on the backseat, where we foreground what it means to be human. And what it means to connect with one another in an authentic way, in a genuine way, where we speak with respect and empathy. We practice active listening.

Han

22:57

In the first stage, we begin to understand where we come from. Although we may be different. Then how do I understand your position? So that's also part of the negotiation process. I feel that we have done quite a bit when it comes to inclusion and diversity. One is really foregrounding some of these concepts, and two is also creating events and opportunities for people to come together. A third thing I would like to see more, perhaps, is the ability to negotiate between the differences.

And that is something that I find that sometimes it's a bit challenging in Singapore. And it's not simply about, you know, agreeing to disagree, and maybe just feeling a bit more sensitive about not, disrespecting your neighbour.

Han

23:44

But at the same time, it's also important to talk about serious issues. So we talk about creating safe spaces so people can come together. But there’s another term that I learned recently at a conference introduced by a new friend. And he said that we need to go beyond creating safe spaces, but brave spaces need to be created as well, right? We don't just come and then exchange pleasantries and then the views remain there.

The spaces also must be brave for us to kind of grapple with these issues so that we don't necessarily come to a consensus and that may not be the ultimate goal. But we come to a common understanding of our positions. I think that's one way that we can go forward.

Jai

24:29

I totally resonate with this, Han. I also heard from another friend telling me that when we organise and we get people to hear, I think we often have a lot of talking points like we want to be able to convey certain messages. But maybe, instead of using the term, talking points, we should really reframe and say how can we become listening points.

Jai

24:52

So the genuine need that I want to listen from your perspective. And I feel that's how, why sometimes I think we are not so good at being able to hold difficult conversations. Sometimes, I feel that the trust may not be there, the relationship may not be there. It requires us to cultivate that trust and relationship. And definitely one thing is, I'm genuinely here to listen, right? And not everything can be done. But what is it that can be done? What cannot be done? This is where I feel that kind of a generative conversation is very critical.

Jai

25:30

And I think sometimes the gap also happens because people may always say that you don't understand my lived experiences. I think it's also important – it's not just bringing everybody to a nice room and then we all talk about the issue.

But actually, how can we go down and really understand the lived experiences of how, if it's an elderly or if it's a youth, what is their world? You know, and I think once we form that connection, it also helps to bridge diversity. So I think understanding lived experiences is very critical.

Han

26:06

Thank you very much for this great discussion with you, Jai. I can’t believe that the time just passed like that. We have so much more to explore, and I’m really looking forward to continuing our next conversation in part two of this podcast.

Jai

26:20

Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed my time. And I hope more people will also start having such conversations in their own circles.

Han

26:28

Thank you for this conversation today.

Jai

26:30

Thank you.