Speaker | Timecode | Transcript |
Han | 00:10 | Hello, everyone. Welcome to Thought Starters, I’m Han from the Centre of Excellence for Social Good. And, Jai, welcome back to the second episode of this podcast on Social Compact. |
Jai | 00:22 | Thank you, Han. I think we had such a great conversation the last round, and I’m really looking forward to how we can have another energising conversation. |
Han | 00:31 | Likewise, I believe it will be pretty power-packed. |
Jai | 00:34 | Actually I'm quite curious. I mean, I know you are in the university line for a very long time. So I just want to know your perspectives about the role of, maybe not just universities, but just education institutions. What role do they play? Because I think all youths come in contact with educational institutions. So, I’m just curious to hear, what should the future of education look like? |
Han | 00:58 | I mean I've started my career in teaching in secondary school and then gradually moved on to university level and adult learning as well. I think there's a lot of opportunities to mirror the real world in the classroom. That has not always been the case. So, you know, in a more traditional classroom, whatever you learn in the classroom stays in the classroom, you bring it out and you realise, why did I even learn algebra in the first place? |
Han | 01:29 | But these days, I think, again, creating opportunities where the world is brought into the classroom and the classroom is brought into the world. We see, you know, experiential learning, we see project-based or problem-based learning. You see a lot more, group-based assessments. So it's really trying to mirror real life, through the education institution and through the education enterprise, right? |
Han | 01:54 | I mean, one of the things we have to think about also is when we look at youth and SUSS is very unusual because we're not just a more conventional university that takes in students fresh out of poly or A-levels. We have a very broad range of adult learners too. Enrollment could be folks from their late teens all the way to the seventies. So this in itself is very diverse. |
Han | 02:22 | The first thing that universities can offer is really an opportunity to mirror diversity, and not just in, so-called classroom, lab setting, but really in real life through the activities that we do and through the connections with the industry. That also helps to build bridges and connections between what we learn and acquire or what we teach. And this is also important for educators, instructors, because they can’t teach content in a vacuum. So there has to be that relevance to society. |
Han | 02:56 | But yet the same time, the university is not a tool of society. We also want to champion certain things like academic freedom, the ability to really take an idea and run with it and see how far you can go with it. So, one is the diversity, two is the promotion of industry and experience to narrow the gap between the two. And I think, the third place is also coming back to creating safe and brave places where students can kind of practice, negotiating some of the difficulties that they will face in the workplace. |
Jai | 03:32 | I think it's spot on because I have two sons, teenagers. And they will tell me that, sometimes they ask me, why do I need to go to school? Because whatever the teacher is teaching me, I already know, and they are more creative. They don't just learn through online textbooks. They learn through YouTube. In fact, I feel that in the world of their own, they are exposed to more different methodologies of learning and teaching. I do agree that, I mean, I think, like it or not, the lived experiences of the young are very different, right? Knowledge can actually be acquired, very easily today. So it's about then, applied teaching. |
Jai | 04:15 | And I really echo what you say, I do teach in SUSS as an associate for quite a long time. And I can see that, the strong emphasis on application and the strong emphasis on practitioner-based teaching, even when it comes to research, it's more applied research and how we want to be able to address certain societal issues. And I think that's where, higher institutions or even, you know, even in JC – junior colleges and secondary schools or polytechnics, it's becoming more relevant. |
Jai | 04:50 | And if students are able to go down and provide opportunities to really look at real-life situations, go down to the ground beyond the classroom, and get their hands dirty and be able to understand certain trade-offs and know, how do I actually think about a particular solution to a complex issue? I think that's the best learning and we are actually getting them involved in some of these challenges that we face as a society. And, they have a taste of how things can be done. I feel that is, I mean my wish is that's how university education or higher institution education should go to. |
Jai | 05:30 | And, even as educators, it is very critical that we can't just be textbook educators. You need to have your war stories. You need to have your practitioner experiences. That's what the students don't have, right? ChatGPT is not going to give you the war stories, but ChatGPT will tell you what framework to use. And if I'm going to repeat the same framework, you'll be losing that connection. That's something very critical to think about as well. |
Han | 05:59 | And definitely when it comes to communication, there's also the emotional aspect that comes into interpersonal interaction. That perhaps, something that's the same content that's mediated through technology doesn't quite capture as much of that. So, you know, traditionally we had students who filtered between the school and the home and maybe had a bit of, you know, CCA where they played with their friends. So there's a social circle that they had. |
Han | 06:26 | But today, our youths have got so many more contact points outside of the school and home. So among the friends but also they have friends from all over the world, mediated through technology. And when they play, say, you know, online games for instance. So maybe their friend is from Slovakia, who knows. And boundaries are really much more fluid nowadays in that sense. |
Han | 06:50 | It's also important, I feel that we take the opportunity to break down some of these categories. So even if we look at, say, universities, you know, typically getting a crop of youths. Even if we look at the youth definition of, say, 18 to 35, they are a diverse group, right? For those who come up to, say, 18 or 20, you know, for them, what is important is the stress of the education journey that they experience, the peer pressure that they face, whether it's for CCAs, whether it's for internships, whether it's for grades, or even the expectations from parents and peers. |
Han | 07:30 | But then you also have the next segment of youth who are somewhere in the 20s transition, maybe about to start work, and they're looking at finding the right jobs because I think inherent, there's also a fear that whether some of the earlier educational choices will kind of create an impact in your life outcomes further down the road. Did I choose the right course, did I get the right internship? Will I have a good start to my career? And then to the further end, you also maybe have, young families as well. There are different layers to the youth population that in itself is already quite heterogeneous. |
Jai | 08:12 | So I think you've just added more complexity to diversity. And I think it goes back to the whole point about how tough then – it is a big challenge. Social compact is just not something that we talk about and we can achieve it. Because, likewise even the elderly, I mean, if you look at it, we're not just talking about elderly who are frail. We're not just talking about elderly, maybe, who are living alone, but we are also talking about, elderly who are still very vibrant. I mean, when you look at them, you cannot say that hey, actually, they're 60, they're 70. |
Jai | 08:46 | I recently met someone, she's a 70-year-old senior, and she wanted to have a conversation about what we can do together and stuff like that. And she met me on a Sunday morning, we had breakfast. And she didn't look 70 to me. I mean, and I was like, “Wow, so much energy”. I mean, at 70, maybe I really would have wanted to retire and not be working. But she was still going on very strong about wanting to do new stuff. I have another, close to 80 years old and he wants to write a book. I'm like, wow, you know, there's so much energy. And when I asked this 70-year-old senior. Oh, so it’s Sunday, so after this, what are you going to do? She said, “Oh this whole day I've got engagements. I've got meetings.” I was like, wow. |
Jai | 09:34 | So again, you see, if you just look at the senior population or you look at the youth population, they are not homogeneous. And the groups are very diverse by themselves. Then we have to be able to see how I can feel, even the different segments of the same population will feel belonged, will have a positive experience. And I can still continue to energise them, in our society and in our country. |
Jai | 10:05 | I mean, I find it very hard not to talk about social mobility when we talk about social compact. Are there some intersections here? |
Han | 10:14 | I think in Singapore we talk a lot about the role of education and the ability to open doors and to provide opportunities for social mobility. Social mobility also can be seen not just for the majority of people who fit into that, but can we also look at groups that perhaps don't fit into that status quo? For example, single parents, single parents with children with disabilities, single parents with children with disabilities, and who are also a sandwiched generation with elderly parents. And the list goes on in that. So really when you want to do a mix and match, there are potentially so many permutations for us. But so, education being one, how about other kinds of support? |
Han | 11:01 | Again, we can look at formal as well as informal. As far as the formal support is concerned, we’ve had quite a number of say transfers, whether it's CDC vouchers or subsidies and so forth, housing included. There are also informal structures, which I'm a bit more drawn to. Some of the things would be, say, community support. How do you create more ground up movements that are supportive? I mean, there's also a sustainability component to this because the government can't do it all. |
Han | 11:33 | But at the same time, when you get community together, you also begin to build some of the bonds over there. I think social mobility is not just in the social-economic sphere. So in the economic sphere, getting ahead in life, but it's also living a full and satisfactory life. And at the end, do you have enough friends? Not that you need to have a million followers. But do you have enough of that? |
Han | 12:00 | I think of one programme that I think was in Marine Parade called Goodlife Makan. So that one really was created to cater to the needs of single seniors, in relation to social isolation. Typically, the model would be to bring befrienders to the apartments and then speak to them, and then who knows when the befrienders will come again. But instead of doing it that way, they created an open space right in the void deck. It's a Goodlife Makan space where people can come and cook. And then as they cook, because food brings people together, people can come and connect. So the connection is both positive in which they are making friends, but they also squabble and quarrel with one another. But that comes back to the human condition, right? That we become stronger, not just from the positive friendships that we make, but sometimes the disagreements that we have and then we patch back. So I think that is also a form of social mobility that we think about in terms of the quality of life that we can advance with. |
Jai | 13:02 | I think Goodlife Makan that you are sharing is an excellent example about how we don't take a problem-focused approach. Like if the befriender goes in or you ask about certain problems and we try to match you and refer you to certain services. But actually, going back, I like what you said, the essence is – I'm trying to help to build natural relationships. Trying to get people to come down. And I'm just using something so simple. Food. It's not a complicated programme or a service that we're running. But through something very basic, food, and I'm actually harnessing and going back to forming connections and forming relationships. And in this case it’s amongst seniors and actually building their social network and eventually, be able to, tackle this issue of them not feeling isolated. |
Jai | 13:55 | I think it just gels with a lot of what we've been talking about today, how we can break down some of these things and just go back to the natural, and what it means for the different segments of the population. I think as a society, we have progressed, and we have come very, very far. |
Jai | 14:16 | I think as a country, we also need to be able to do that for the next generation. So if you look at the racing track, there are some people who just have the ability to run very fast. I should be able to enable that. I don't think it's a situation where I can tell the person who can run very far, maybe we need to slow down a bit. So maybe you cannot run as far as possible. I don't think that's fair because they just have the natural abilities to be able to run fast. |
Jai | 14:44 | But at the same time, for the person who's not able to run fast. I think as a society, I must be able to also ensure, how can I help him to still complete the race so that we all reach the final, common finishing point. But I am not expecting anybody to slow down. Or maybe for the person who is going to be the last person in the race. It may be too much of a hurdle to play the catch-up game. But minimally, I want him to ensure that we can complete the race and we reach the final, finishing point. |
Jai | 15:15 | And again, I see that as a big challenge. It's not so much about getting everybody to come to the same set of programmes or reaching the same level of education. I think we have just progressed to a certain extent, I think it's going to be difficult to bring back or slow down. |
Jai | 15:34 | But we do need to think a lot more about how we are going to help those who are the second, third, fourth, fifth, runners to also complete the race and complete the race feeling satisfied. |
Han | 15:48 | So that point comes back to the issue of equity over here. For a long time we talk about equality where everybody gets the same thing. But really we're moving towards equity over here. So the sports analogy is really good. Very interesting also because, when we look at, say, the Olympics, we see, people who are at the top of the game, but also taking a moment to look back and see who needs help or waiting for them to cross the finish line together. It is already very clear that this person's ahead of the game, right? Well, he doesn't need to rub it in people's faces. |
Han | 16:27 | I think one of the learning is that then how can we, who are stronger in certain areas, also be a partner to those who may be weaker in certain areas. So how then do we also promote a culture of equity, in how we do and not just a culture of personal excellence? Sometimes I think that is in contrast to quite a bit of that messaging in the earlier part of the social compact that talks about self-reliance, many helping hands, that sort of thing. |
Han | 16:57 | And to a certain extent, people begin to think that nobody is going to help me. But I think we need to move into this next stage of our society where we feel safe that someone will come and help me, just as I will be willing to step up when I see someone needing my help. |
Jai | 17:12 | Right, just something came to my mind when you talked about equity. So if we look at how we want to achieve, greater social compact in our society. So first we are looking at diversity. If I see diversity as a room, I want to ensure who is in the room. In the room there must be very diverse individuals, not just one type of a segment. And then second, if equity is a room, then equity should be asking who is trying to get into the room and allow it. And then the last part is once everybody's in the room, inclusiveness is really about listening to the ideas. Everybody feels that their ideas are heard. I'm not saying that it definitely has to be implemented. But yes, I think I have a part and I've contributed my idea and my perspectives. I feel these three things are very critical in order for us to look at social compact, sort of like moving forward in our society. |
Han | 18:14 | I want to add also, looking at equity, the concept of asset-based community development. And so, one is how are we defining success, in Singapore today? I mean, typically the easier way is to look at your financial success, say your title or position in life. What kind of material goods you are able to afford and things like that. And that is, those are the easy things, to determine. |
Han | 18:39 | But I think something that is more complicated and less visible would be interpersonal skills and this idea of strengths. So when we look at asset-based community development, it’s really your ABCD, is really looking at the strengths and talents in the community. And very often it doesn't mean that because we recognise it, we don't necessarily have to bring in new resources. We can do better by connecting existing resources, recognising resources or strengths or talents that typically don't fall into that conventional list of what we term as success. |
Jai | 19:13 | Totally agree. I think if I see assets as a country, actually we have a lot of assets. We do have a strong and efficient government that itself is an asset. And we do have a strong people sector. And we do have a very strong private sector as well. But how are we going to bring all of these assets together and have joint conversations and be able to take responsibility that we need to build this society moving forward. And how can we actually all harness each other's strengths? I think some of the things that we've been talking about are very complex and it's impossible for just one group of entities to be able to do it. There's just diverse viewpoints and diverse assets and diverse strengths. But now you need to actually bring everybody to the table and have a unified conversation. And how are we going to resolve some of the societal challenges that we face. |
Han | 20:15 | And that part I'm very interested in is partnerships, coalition building, you know, collaborations. I think very often, especially when there is a resource scarce mentality, there is a sense that maybe I need to compete for the same resources. But I think when we think more generatively, when we move from a more consumerist to a more contributor, generative mindset, through partnerships, then we realise that maybe the pie isn't that small after all. And it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. And that's why I think that we do need facilitation, but we also need to have more partnerships across. |
Jai | 20:55 | You know, as a young boy, in school and in P.E.(Physical Education), one of my favourite games was tug of war. And then you just have two teams basically trying to pull in opposite directions, and then eventually one team wins, right? But if I use the same rope, I think for me, social compact is now, I imagine the rope as a lot of small knots. And I need people to stand in a circle. And the people standing in the circle are all very diverse. They are all also holding on to the rope, but not loosely. But actually, you hold it so tightly that you can’t fall. You are helping each other to create that tightness and strengthen the connections of the knots. That's really how I see, we need to strive towards social compact, if I were to use an analogy. |
Jai | 21:47 | And I also would want to say, moving forward, it's not just about holding this rope in a circle. There may be a lot more smaller ropes that's going to cut across. So it's really a web of connections. But it's a web of tight connections. And the thing is, not like a tug of war – one team will fall and the other team cheers. But this one is when I hold onto the rope in a circle, hold tightly, and if I move back, nobody will fall. So I think to me, that is what I wish, as a Singapore society, it’s a place that we know that we will not fall in this society and in this country. |
Han | 22:30 | I like that you are redefining the game and redefining the rules of the game over here, which is essentially what we're trying to do as we move into a different Singapore, right? I think in essence, we're still the same Singapore, but it's a very different global reality. It's a very different set of stresses that our population has today, right? |
Han | 22:50 | Maybe also to bring up the idea that the Singapore story needs to be refreshed in a way that's relatable to this younger generation. So again, it's no longer the conventional tug of war. People may understand how it works, may have seen pictures of its existence, but maybe have not participated in it. In refreshing the Singapore story it’s also to make it relatable to people who did not have those lived experiences and cannot find that connection. |
Han | 23:23 | So Jai, it's been a pleasure having you join us for two conversations. And we’ve come to the, I guess, the end of our social compact discussion, for now. But it's been great having this robust conversation with you and thank you for your perspectives. |
Jai | 23:38 | Thank you so much for inviting me and giving me an opportunity to share my views and my perspectives. I really hope that this conversation will continue, not just among the two of us, but with many more people having conversations on this very important topic. |
Han | 23:56 | Indeed. And this is a call-out to our listeners out there – do get in touch with us if you have any great ideas for our next podcast discussion. Thank you. |