Speaker | Timecode | Transcript |
- | 00:00:00:00 | Welcome to the SUSS series of podcasts where we explore ideas, solutions and collaborations that are making a difference in the lives of individuals, families, communities and beyond. This series features guests who will discuss how we can achieve social impact for the greater good, no matter how big or small. |
- | 00:00:24:14 | Previously on the SUSS Podcast… |
Kee Hean | 00:00:27:20 | The network and the methods, to commit corruption and then to launder the corruption proceeds, are already in place. It is a problem that the international community is struggling with. |
Kee Hean | 00:00:42:00 | From Singapore's perspective, we therefore not only look at what happens within our boundaries, but also what happens when Singapore businesses venture out of the country to do business. |
Omer | 00:00:57:00 | So I was thinking in terms of MNCs and what you just mentioned. Can you give some examples of corruption involving MNCs and so on? |
Kee Hean | 00:01:05:10 | So the behaviour of our Singapore companies, when they go abroad is also of vital significance to Singapore. Because it again, boils down to the point on what kind of image and branding it conveys about Singapore. If you imagine a country whose businessmen are all very corrupt and then everywhere they go, there's a certain branding. |
Kee Hean | 00:01:29:10 | But the Singapore businessman cannot carry this kind of reputation and we have to be quite strict about it. If they commit corruption offences in other countries, they have to be accountable for it, even in Singapore (Omer: I mean it reflects on us as a people, as a nation) Yes, and that's what happened with a case encountered by Keppel Offshore and Marine. Keppel Offshore and Marine was in the business of building oil rigs. |
Kee Hean | 00:01:56:03 | They were caught up in a corruption case in Brazil, for a period of 10 years, up to 2014. Keppel Offshore and Marine had won contracts for about 13 oil rigs. And these are contracts that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. But along the way, to win the contracts they paid bribes. |
Kee Hean | 00:02:16:19 | They paid bribes to the tune of US$50 million. They were caught and investigated by US authorities, Brazilian authorities, Singapore authorities and they were imposed with a financial penalty of US$422 million. And this is a very clear message to the businesses in Singapore that if they operate overseas, they must still observe the law of the land and they should not resort to corruption in order to win contracts. |
Kee Hean | 00:02:51:24 | They must still uphold the kinds of discipline and code of conduct that we expect of companies operating in Singapore. |
Omer | 00:03:01:01 | Because they are our representatives. And it's the message we're sending to the world that when you deal with Singapore, this is the kind of ethical standards you can expect that carries a lot of values. |
Omer | 00:03:12:24 | And speaking of values and how society as we know, it's constantly changing. Now let's just look forward a bit. So what do you think could be future challenges in preventing corruption? |
Kee Hean | 00:03:24:12 | There are various challenges that authorities around the world have to grapple with. A lot of it has to do with the advances of technology. |
Kee Hean | 00:03:34:04 | Technology is there to serve the public good, and to advance society interests. But technology is also abused by the criminals and the corruption offenders. For example, a few years ago in Singapore, the CPIB dealt with a corruption offender who was fixing football matches. |
Kee Hean | 00:03:56:20 | So he had this document which had instructions for referees that he had paid bribes to and he encrypted the document in his computer. So when he was caught, he refused to tell the CPIB what was the decryption code. So fortunately, the CPIB had enough capability to break the encryption and then recovered the document that is vital evidence to convict him. |
Kee Hean | 00:04:22:12 | With this sort of technology available, criminals will use it, not just encryption technology but other ways and means that they have in order to conceal their illegal activities. So that's one challenge. And one of the other ways that we are seeing is the proliferation of illegal activities in the dark net. |
Kee Hean | 00:04:44:22 | And the dark net today is a segment of the internet where a lot of illegal activities, such as drug trafficking and firearm trafficking have occurred and corruption offenders can also use it to do their illegal transactions. |
Kee Hean | 00:05:03:05 | And avoid detection and investigation by the authorities. Some of the other technologies that bring us a lot of good could also be abused. For example, cryptocurrency such as bitcoin. |
Omer | 00:05:16:22 | Omer: Yes, that’s the next big thing isn’t it? |
Kee Hean | 00:05:18:05 | Yes, that’s increasingly being used by criminals for their transactions. And corruption offenders have also used cryptocurrency for their illegal payments. Bribes could be paid by way of cryptocurrency. |
Kee Hean | 00:05:33:07 | And when cryptocurrency is transacted through the dark net, then you combine all these usage of technology. Such technology were originally built to benefit society. But the criminals will just abuse it. |
Omer | 00:05:48:04 | These technologies were meant to promote things like free speech, free markets and so on and so forth. But then I do see what you mean. It's a double-edged sword because it also helps to mask their movements, create a kind of anonymity in which they can operate in the shadows. And the internet is a great place to hide. |
Omer | 00:06:06:24 | And I guess it's getting really demystified now. And I'm just wondering, in terms of stopping challenges like this, and these challenges are going to evolve and get very complex. That's when we get down to the ground level of implementation. So I guess the devil is in the implementation sometimes. So how big of a challenge would it be to implement some of these countermeasures to tackle these future challenges that you just mentioned. |
Kee Hean | 00:06:31:10 | Of course, when we look at the counter measures, technology is also a counter measure because technology is kind of a double-edged sword. It is abused by criminals, but at the same time, it is also used by the authorities to help them fight and combat corruption. (Omer: Fight fire with fire?) And of course, yes, and, and of course this is legitimate use of technology by the authorities. |
Kee Hean | 00:06:52:24 | For example, digital technology. Today as you look across the world, many countries embark on digital transformation. They use digital technology for delivery of public services, for interaction between government and citizens, and for various activities including elections, birth and death registration, passport registration, licensing, and so on and so forth. |
Kee Hean | 00:07:20:22 | Such technology does have a mitigating effect on corruption because as we enable public services to become more efficient, such digital technology cuts down on face-to-face interaction, cuts down on potential opportunities where the corrupt-minded may manipulate and use to extract bribes. |
Kee Hean | 00:07:44:11 | So such digital technologies are one of the ways to advance the fight against corruption. And there are countries that are very good at this; countries like Singapore, Korea, and Estonia that are highly advanced in using digital technology. So that helps. |
Kee Hean | 00:08:02:14 | And of course, new and emerging technologies such as artificial intelligence and sophisticated data analytics can be employed to fight against corruption tendencies. |
Kee Hean | 00:08:14:22 | When such technology is applied to the whole host of transactions. For example financial transactions, can such technology help sieve out and identify the problematic ones so that the authorities can then look at it? And if it's a problem of corruption, they can quickly deal with it. So I'm sure that such technology is already available and it is incumbent on governments to make full use of it. |
Kee Hean | 00:08:45:19 | For example, even in our local banks, you will see them using such technologies, artificial intelligence, which are applied, sometimes (in) real time as well. Because in a banking environment, transactions are moving so quickly. And if the frontline bank customer service officer is assisted by such technology and the technology helps to signal to the staff that something may be problematic, this allows a staff the chance to look at it.
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Kee Hean | 00:09:18:21 | And if the human takes a look at it and finds this problematic, then the interdiction action and follow up can be done straight away, very real-time. |
Omer | 00:09:29:06 | Preventative measures that you put into the system for detection. It's kind of like putting tripwires in the system. If something is triggered, then the individual who's responsible knows that a deeper level of checks might be necessary. |
Kee Hean | 00:09:44:05 | Yes, that's right. So it is, as you say, a form of an alert system. And that is a part of a package of measures that has to be applied. So when we look at the problem of corruption, such preventive measures, as well as the follow-up response measure has to be engineered in both the public sector, within the public institutions, say in our ministries and in the public agencies, as well as in the private sector within companies and businesses. |
Kee Hean | 00:10:16:08 | So each institution has to put in place proper safeguards. In Singapore, sometimes we take it for granted that we look at our public agencies and institutions and we assume that we have good systems and everything works well. And we take it that this is the way it is. |
Kee Hean | 00:10:37:05 | It's not so in some countries. Some countries struggle and they face tremendous challenges. Their public institutions may face a constraint in resources. They may not have some capabilities to manage some of their processes, even their processes that have to do with human resource management, managing the payroll, managing terms and conditions of service, managing code of conduct, managing issues such as conflict of interest. |
Omer | 00:11:10:00 | So these lack of resources make the vulnerability for corruption to be there. |
Kee Hean | 00:11:14:24 | Yes, and their capacity to manage day-to-day work as well as to do forward planning may encounter a lot of constraints. So if they are not well-structured and well developed, then they already face difficulties. And then when the… |
Omer | 00:11:32:10 | Right, the propensity comes in for corruption. |
Kee Hean | 0011:34:15 | … crisis comes, with its corruption tendency, then they will face enormous challenges. So it's the same in the private sector. Companies and businesses do have to observe certain corporate governance and compliance standards. So as to ensure that, personnel in the private sector, do observe ethical standards, And will not fall prey to corruption. |
Omer | 00:11:57:23 | And it's not just the public and private sectors per se. And I do see what you're getting at. It has to be supported at a number of levels, isn't it? So I was just wondering what can be done in terms of public support, against corruption in general? |
Kee Hean | 00:12:13:09 | You're right. Public support is a vital success factor. It works two ways. One, when the public looks at what the authorities are doing about corruption, they form certain views and they may then either trust or mistrust the government authorities. |
Kee Hean | 00:12:31:20 | Assuming the authorities say they want to fight corruption. But when it happens, they do nothing about it. Then that will lead the public to think that this authority is not serious. There will then be a lack of public trust and public support. |
Kee Hean | 00:12:48:08 | If we look at it from the perspective of the authorities, the authorities also do need to reach out to the public and show by way of their decision-making and action that they are credible enough to gain this public trust and public support. So it works two ways. |
Kee Hean | 00:13:08:21 | In today's context with the use of technology, especially with social media, the relationship between the authority and the citizenry is quite important. When we say public support, it is a relational concept. So when social media becomes more and more prevalent, it can bring about two potential consequences. |
Kee Hean | 00:13:33:10 | One, if social media opens up the channel for two-way communication between authorities and the citizens, the citizens can use that to find out information about what's going on. They can [give] feedback, they can question the authorities, they can hold the authorities accountable. The authorities can use that channel and any other channel to share information and to communicate effectively with the citizenry. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:01:11 | And if that two-way process works well, then it helps to improve the state of governance. And it helps with maintenance of corruption control measures. Because that's a channel for the public to report. And to tell you if there's a problem. But social media can also be misused. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:20:05 | And this is where misinformation, false information, fake news can be perpetuated through social media. And if you look at issues of corruption, if there's misinformation that spread about corruption about cases, then it will come back to the issue of trust. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:41:02 | So even in Singapore, we had in 2018 one episode where there was misinformation spread through Facebook that says, “Oh, you know, the Singapore government allowed Prime Minister Najib to launder his funds in Singapore. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:56:18 | Why? Because we were negotiating with him on the high-speed rail and the water issue and some other policy matters. And, we wanted favourable terms from the negotiation. So in exchange for that, we let him launder his money in Singapore. So of course, that was quite a baseless allegation. And the government had to dispel that publicly so that the public can understand the facts and will not be misled by this sort of misinformation. |
Omer | 00:15:25:19 | When they see a story like that, they just cherry-pick the information, just add in a few accusations. And then that story takes a life of its own. I suppose that can be very damaging to the work of officers who are trying to prevent corruption because you don't have that cooperation from the public will now see like, “Oh the authorities themselves are doing things like this”. But what can be done to sort of nip it in the bud? |
Kee Hean | 00:15:49:21 | The ability to manage social media, to be upfront in communication between government and citizens is quite important. And the ability of the government to quickly put the facts forward if at all, there's some misinformation that arises. Because if they fail to deal with it, sometimes the consequences can be quite disastrous. |
Kee Hean | 00:16:12:05 | We have seen in 2019 in the aftermath of the Indonesian presidential election. There was misinformation about electoral fraud. And this led to violent riots in various parts of Indonesia. And it even led to fatalities. |
Omer | 00:16:31:00 | So you can have a pretty far reaching impact, isn’t it? It starts with issues of corruption and so on, but downstream effects can have many dimensions. And I do see what you mean about having to respond in a not just timely manner. But the public is also able to see that kind of transparency and forthright communication coming from the authorities. |
Omer | 00:16:50:05 | Thank you, Kee Hean. You've given us so much to think about. |
Omer | 00:16:55:00 | The takeaway is about how the COVID-19 pandemic actually created a lot of fault lines and vulnerabilities for bad actors to exploit. And it is very sad that some of these bad actors were those who were responsible for the wellbeing of COVID-19 patients. They were in positions of responsibility and power. Yet they exploited and abused their authority and their position for their own self-gain. |
Omer | 00:17:21:07 | The next takeaway from what you mentioned, Kee Hean, was about Singapore's guiding philosophy on corruption, which is about zero tolerance. Where corruption cannot be tolerated at any level, whether it's just small-scale corruption or corruption at the highest levels. Because even small-scale corruption events, they basically create the opportunity for people to think about pushing the limits and trying their luck. But it's also the general message that we are sending to the world that we as Singaporeans will not tolerate any kind of corruption at any level. And this is the kind of ethical standard that you can expect from Singaporeans when you do business with us. |
Omer | 00:18:02:19 | The last takeaway which you mentioned, which I felt was very pertinent, was about technological challenges. And you are very correct. It's a double-edged sword. It can be something that people can exploit to hide their activities through creating anonymity and so on. But it can also be used to detect some of these bad actors. |
Omer | 00:18:22:05 | Finally, I think one of the key takeaways from your sharing is that it's not just about public private partnerships. That is very important, but everybody, the public at large, everybody has a part to play in tackling corruption. |
Omer | 00:18:37:08 | So Kee Hean, do you have any concluding thoughts? |
Kee Hean | 00:18:41:00 | Yes. When we look at the issue of corruption, we must recognise that corruption is not a static phenomenon. It's dynamic. And it responds to environmental changes, it responds to political, social and economic changes that occur around us. So in countries like Singapore or Hong Kong, which are low corruption economies, the fact that we have a state of low corruption today does not guarantee us that we will have low corruption in the years ahead. |
Kee Hean | 00:19:12:18 | So we do need to look at the situation and evolve our systems so that we continue to keep corruption at bay. And one important element of this is the role of the public. For corruption control to be effective, there has to be public support. |
Kee Hean | 00:19:33:13 | And it is quite important that the messaging that comes out from the different stakeholders that are involved in the fight against corruption, has to be appropriate. So be it the public agencies or the businesses and companies, the kind of messaging that comes up must reinforce the zero-tolerance policy that we have. And the public looks at it, and then they can see that if something goes wrong, action will be taken. |
Kee Hean | 00:20:04:10 | And if something goes wrong and they have observed it, they should alert and flag it up and continue to maintain the vigilance and to be able to react to changing circumstances. And in that way, we make sure that we will not fall into the trap of complacency. |
Omer | 00:20:24:07 | I guess this is a battle that has to be waged on a number of levels and everybody has a part to play in maintaining this vigilance and moving forward, it's all about asking the right questions. And there are going to be a lot of questions we need to keep asking as new challenges come about. So thank you very much Kee Hean. You've given us so many wonderful insights and things to think very deeply about regarding this topic of governance and corruption. I wish you the very best in the work that you're doing. And once again, thank you for joining me in this show. |
Kee Hean | 00:20:55:05 | Thank you very much. I enjoyed our conversation very much. |
Omer | 00:20:57:24 | Thanks, Kee Hean. It was great talking to you. |
- | 00:21:02:05 | You’ve been listening to the SUSS series of podcasts. To find more episodes visit suss.edu.sg/podcast. |